benefitting donald trump and causing republicans to dig in. now you could be right. and of course i hope you are. i'm just not certain that's what's going to happen. >> i think 35% of republicans are going to get upset. but a majority of republicans are ready to move on. that's the unfortunate part of this. >> the ones that have already turned their backs on the republican party because of donald trump. those are the ones that all of these other candidates are vying for their vote. and for the trump space, this, again, makes him a martyr. but others, this is final straw. >> thanks, everyone. we'll be back later after the town hall for analysis, following wit mike pence, which starts right now. ♪ [ applause ] good evening and welcome to

iowa where the 2024 campaign for the white house is heating up. we're live at grandview university in des moines for cnn's town hall with former vice president mike pence. i'm dana bash. tonight we hear from a brand-new candidate in the republican field, former vice president mike pence announced his run for the white house earlier today, a move unprecedented in modern political history. a former vice president running against the president he served under. pence enters a race dominated by that former boss, donald trump, and he will be battling a growing number of rivals for the chance to take on president joe biden. this evening's event is about the voters and the issues that will help them determine who wins the republican nomination. tonight iowa voters will have the opportunity to question the former vice president directly, and i will have some questions of my own. this town hall is part of the republican primary process. and so by design, in the audience tonight are voters who say they plan to participate in the iowa republican caucuses,

both republicans and also independents who plan to register as republicans. the audience comes from all over the state and is representative of iowa republicans. to find tonight's questioner, we reached out to republican affiliated groups, as well as business groups, farm associations, parent groups, young professional organizations, religious groups, and advocacy organizations. in addition to the voters asking the questions, guests of the pence campaign and the university are also in the audience. we have asked everyone here to be respectful so that voters in the room and at home have a chance to hear from the candidate. now please welcome former vice president mike pence. [ applause ] >> thank you. thank you. >> hello, sir. >> dana, good to see you. >> thank you. would you like to have a seat. first, let's get down to business. happy birthday.

what a way to spend your birthday. >> thank you. it's one for the books. >> absolutely. so i mention a vice president running against a president he served with is incredibly unusual. it hasn't happened in modern history. why did you decide to run against your former boss? >> well, first off, dana. thank you to cnn for hosting this town hall, and thank you to all the good people of iowa and for the warm welcome tonight. it is a real privilege for karen and i to be with you and to come here to the first in the nation state to announce my intention to seek the republican nomination for president of the united states. we wanted to do it here. [ applause ] in iowa. my reasons -- dana, my reasons for running, first, i love this country. america has been so good to our family. my grandfather emigrated from

ireland. he went through ellis island. i was named after him. my dad was a combat veteran. my mom and dad built everything that matters, a family, a business, and a good name. we really lived the american dream. and i was raised to believe you give back. and i had the opportunity to do that. we met in the years that i was in the congress of the united states when i was aleader among house conservatives. i was governor of the great state of indiana. it was my privilege to be vice president of the united states. but the opportunities we've had to serve, the experience that we've developed informed very much our sense of calling in this moment because i'm running because i think this country is in a lot of trouble. i think president joe biden and the democrats have weakened america at home and abroad. literally, we have a crisis at our border. we have inflation at a 40-year high. we have a crimewave in our cities. and frankly, that disastrous withdrawal from afghanistan has emboldened the enemies of

freedom around the world. now more than ever, i think those of us that have the experience to bring back real change and to put america back on a track of common sense, conservative principles have a responsibility to step forward. and that's why i'm running for president of the united states. >> and we're going to get to a lot of those issues. but i want to talk about something you mentioned more than one time in your kickoff speech today. you said that on january 6th, you, quote, chose the constitution over donald trump and, quote, now voters will face the same choice. so just to be clear, are you saying that a vote for donald trump is a vote against the constitution? >> well, i've said many times, including on this network and others, and in the book that i wrote last fall, january 6th was a tragic day. thanks to the courage of law enforcement, the violence was quelled. we were able to reconvene the congress the very same day and complete the work of the

american people under the constitution. and i'll always believe that by god's grace, i did my duty that day to support and defend the constitution of the united states and the oath that i had taken. but as i said today in my remarks, i felt it was important as we launch this campaign to understand the president and i had a difference in the past, and that hasn't changed. but also, there are profound differences about the future of this country and the future of the republican party that are articulated today. when the president asserted that i had the right to overturn the election, i said today that i felt that he asking me to choose between him and the constitution. i chose the constitution. and i always will. it was a difficult day. i had frankly hoped the president would come around in the years since and seen we had done our duty under the constitution to preside over the count of the electoral vote as dictated by our founders.

but it's not to be. i said today president trump was wrong then, he's wrong now. but i truly do believe, truly do believe that it's important to remember that those of us that would take the oath of office to serve as president of the united states really make one promise above all others, and that is to support and defend the constitution of the united states. and i pledge to the people of iowa and the people of america that if you give me that great privilege, i will always stand on the constitution of the united states of america. whatever it means. [ applause ] >> sir, i want to go to the audience. we have a question on this issue. meet keaton newgren. a law student from johns town. >> are you prepared to push back on the president on allegations you could have overturned the 2020 election? >> keaton, i would refer you to

my speech today to answer that question. the answer is yes. i think it's important. not that i didn't think there were irregularities in the 2020 election. i did, and i said so on that fateful day. i had concerns that there were half a dozen states that had changed the rules in the name of covid and that had undermined public confidence in our elections. but once states had certified the election, once the courts had reviewed them, once the congress had considered any objections, i knew my duty was clear. the constitution states clearly that the job of the vice president as president of the senate is to preside over a joint session of congress where the electoral college votes are opened and counted. says they shall be opened and they shall be counted. and we did that. and i want the american people to know that i believe with all

my heartaeart we did our duty t day. the bible says he keeps his oath even when it hurts. i know something about that. i know the disappointment of the 2020 election. i was on the ballot. but at the end of the day, i think the republican party has to be the party of the constitution. we've had enough of democrats trampling on our constitutional rights. we got enough of democrats wanting to pack the court, do away with the second amendment, trample our religious freedoms so now more than ever i think the american people need to be able to look to the republican party and say that will be a party whose leaders are all men and women that are dedicated to preserving, protecting and defending the constitution of the united states. >> sir, on that, donald trump says he is inclined to pardon many members of the mob who attacked the capitol on january 6th. those people were, of course, part of the same mob who built gallows and chanted about wanting to hang you. would you consider pardoning any of them? >> you know, on the day of

january 6th, i issued a tweet demanding that people leave the capitol and end the violence. and i said those that failed to do that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. and i continue to believe that today. we cannot ever allow what happened on january 6th to happen again in the heart of our democracy. and i'll stand by the decisions and the due process of court in our laws. i have no interest or no intention of pardoning those that assaulted police officers or vandalized our capitol. they need to be answerable to the law. >> sir, i want to ask about some breaking news. tonight the justice department recently informed donald trump's legal team that he is a target of a federal investigation into possibly mishandling classified documents. i should say you were cleared last week in your own documents case. what's your reaction to the news about your former boss? >> well, let me say the handling

of classified materials is a very serious matter, and that was why after the revelations at the president's residence and the revelations at the former president's residence i took it upon myself to review our files. and we uncovered a small number of documents that had been inadvertently transferred to our residence in indiana. i immediately informed the department of justice and i'm grateful after our full cooperation that they concluded that it was an innocent mistake. >> do you see his case as different? >> let me say this. this, i don't know the facts of the president's case. i don't know the facts of the former president's case. but what we've got to have in this country is equal treatment

under the law. [ applause ] and dana, you may not know, i was very troubled last summer when for the first time in history, there was a search warrant executed at the home of a former president of the united states. surely you know all the years i served on the judiciary committee. that's when you and i first met. there had to be dozens of ways that could have been handled other than that kind of behavior. when i informed the department of justice that we had classified materials potentially in our home, they were at my home, the fbi was on my front doorstep the next day. what we found out is when joe biden apparently alerted the department of justice, 80 days later, they showed up at his office. that's not equal treatment under the law, and we've got to end this two-tiered system. >> the question is allegation that investigation into obstruction, which you clearly did not do. if that is something that investigators see as possible, even enough to potentially

indict the former president, do you think that that should go forward? >> well, i would hope not. i really would, dana. i mean, several reasons for that. number one is i think it would be terribly device alternative the country. i mean, at a time when the american people are hurting, i mean to tell you, families are struggle right now with record inflation. we have a crisis at our boarder the likes of which we've never seen. we have a flood of fentanyl coming in to every city large and small in this country that's killing young people every day. we have threats abroad, a crimewave in our cities. now more than ever we ought to be finding ways we can come together. >> and sir, we're going get to all of, they this kind of action by the department of justice i think would only fuel further division in the country. and let me also say i think it would also send a terrible message to the wider world.

we're the emblem of democracy. we're the symbol of justice in the world. and the serious matter, which has already happened once in new york, of indicting a former president in the united states sends a terrible message to the world. i hope the doj thinks better of it and resolves these issues without an indictment. >> sir, i just want to clarify what you're saying is if they believe he committed a crime, they should not go forward with an indictment? you just talked before about committing to the rule of law. >> let me be clear that no one's above the law. >> okay. >> but with regard to the unique circumstances here, look, those classified -- i had no business having classified documents in my residence, and i took full responsibility for it. president biden had no business having them in his residence from when he was vice president as well. and the same with former president trump. but i would just hope that there would be a way for them to move

forward without the dramatic and drastic and divisive step of indicting a former president of the united states. we've got to find a way to move our country forward and restore confidence in equal treatment under the law in this country. we really do. >> sir, if donald trump -- if donald trump is convicted of a crime, and you're elected president, would you pardon him? >> well, i don't want to speak about hypotheticals. i'm not sure i'm going to be elected president of the united states. but i believe we have a fighting chance. i really believe we do. >> and if you are? >> and i would hope -- again, dana, you're as persistent as ever. cnn is living up to its reputation. i look to the real issues american people are facing. rather than talking about that, i want to talk about what the people in iowa are talking about which is the failed policies of

the biden administration. [ applause ] >> the need for us to have new leadership in the white house and in our party. >> we have a lot of questions to get to. just to be clear, you did talk about a lot of these issues in your intro speech. i do want to go to the audience. i want to talk about the issue of inflation, something that is top of mind for americans. scott math, you are somebody who works in hospitality, a board chair of the iowa hotel and lodging association and a republican from des moines. scott? >> thank you very much. and back to iowa, vice president pence. >> thank you, scott. >> and as she said, my question does evolve around inflation and how it is impacting our businesses and main street. >> right. >> as a father of a recent college graduate, and she is embarking on her new life on her own, is commenting on the incredible prices of groceries at the grocery store and making decisions, fresh fruit or processed, what policies or plans will you champion in order

to get the cost of these necessities back in line? >> right. what your daughter's name? >> her name is rachel. >> well, give rachel our congratulations on graduating from college. >> she's sitting right behind me. >> well done. good luck. [ applause ] well, look, i'm so glad you focused on this issue because inflation is at a 40-year high. and it all started when president joe biden and the democrats passed a $2 trillion bill in the name of covid that lit the pilot light of the worst inflation that we've seen in two generations. i mean, it was completely unnecessary spending, and they knew it. i'm proud of everything that we did during our administration to come alongside families and businesses in the midst of the worst pandemic in 100 years. but here these democrats came in and they just used the excuse of

covid for a gusher of spending and a wish list of liberal policy priorities. and american families have been paying the price, scott, ever since. well, the first thing we need to do, we need to get federal spending under control. i think we ought to impose a freeze on all nondefense discretionary spending across the board. and we ought to turn off all that unnecessary covid spending in its entirety. [ applause ] secondly, secondly, and i want to say this, secondly, i think we got to get the federal reserve back to doing its job, which is protecting the currency. ten years ago, when i was in the congress, i authored a bill that ended what is called the dual mandate. we actually asked the federal reserve to focus on protecting the value of the dollar and full employment. you know, we ought to look to the president, we ought to look to the congress to promote policies that ensure full employment. we've been passing the buck to the fed for too long. let them protect the dollar, and

let's hold our political leaders to account for keeping americans working. [ applause ] >> i just want to circle back to something you said about spending. >> yeah. >> you did urge congress to pass stimulus legislation during the coronavirus pandemic. >> sure did. >> several republicans, including one of your rivals nikki haley when she was right here on the stage this sunday criticized that spending. was it a mistake, especially given what you just said? >> you know, i'll always be proud of what the american people did during the course of the worst pandemic in 100 years. the end of february 2020, president trump asked me to lead the white house coronavirus task force. and one of the things i did immediately, her had a group of scientists that were working and specialists in the area. some of them became quite famous. but i immediately added economic officials. the secretary of agriculture, our economic adviser larry

kudlow, the treasury secretary, because i knew in advising the president, we would have to make sure he understood what the cost to the economy would be to what we had done. and i must tell you, i think all along the way, are there lessons to be learned for the day that this happens again in america? absolutely. >> is spending one of them? >> and i want to look at those lessons. but i got to tell you, the way we did the paycheck protection program i think saved tens of millions of jobs all across this country, including here in iowa, and i believe the help that we provided to american families was absolutely essential. and, again, i'll always be proud of what the american people accomplished, but i'll always be open to learning what lessons we can learn. >> let's go back to the audience. i want you to meet mary landeis. >> hi, mary. >> she is a mom and a republican who serves on the state

workforce development board. mary? >> very good. first of all, i want to say thank you for your service and happy birthday. >> thank you, mary. very kind. >> i have a very brief question. i just want you to share your thoughts on abortion. >> you know, mary, i'm pro-life, and i don't apologize for it. [ applause ] you know, when karen and i were running for congress 20 years ago, our kids were 4, 5, and 6. and i remember we looked at them, and we were trying to explain to our children why we were selling our dream house, moving from our hometown, going to spend all of our savings and uproot all of our lives to run for congress. and my wife karen looked at our little ones and said it's for the babies. and all my time in congress, i stood for the right the life. i authored the first legislation to defund planned parenthood, ever to pass the congress in the

united states. [ applause ] when i was governor of indiana, we not only stood for the right to life, but we promoted adoption reform because i believe if you're going to be pro-life, you need to be pro-adoption. but i will tell you, mary, i couldn't be more proud to have been vice president in an administration that appointed three of the justices that sent roe v. wade to the ash heap of history where it belongs and gave america a new beginning for life. but now -- i think now it's incumbent on us as americans to bring both principle and compassion to this cause. many states i'm proud to say have advanced pro-life legislation, but we have a long way to go to win the hearts and minds of the american people. but i think that showing compassion and sensitivity and respect for one another, coming alongside women in crisis pregnancies as my wife karen and i have sought to do at crisis

pregnancy centers around the country is the way to do that. but i promise you, mary, i've had 64 times around the sun. however more times i get, me and my family, we will not rest or relent until we restore the sanctity of life to the center of american law in every state in the country. [ applause ] >> sir, should any federal abortion ban also include exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother? >> well those are exceptions that i've always supported, dana, as you know. i'm a strong supporter of the hyde amendment. when i was in the congress of the united states, which coincidentally, president joe biden was too. for years and years, he opposed taxpayer funding of abortion on to the hyde amendment. but recognize those exceptions in those matters. but the truth is he abandoned that. he abandoned all of his

position. and the truth is as republicans debate this issue in states around the country today, it's always important to remember that the democrat party's position is abortion on demand with taxpayer dollars all the way up to the moment of birth. and as we talk about the possibility of national standards, a 15-week standard, which would put america more in line with most of the european union. most of the european countries have either a 12 to 15-week rule on abortion. our laws today are more in line with china, iran, and north korea. and for my part, if i have the great privilege to serve as president of the united states, i'll support the cause of life at every level, the state level, the local level with taxpayer dollars, and international level. >> and just the person you're running against, or you want to run against if you get the nomination is president biden. he says that codifying roe v. wade is his position. that means a right to an abortion until the point of

viability, not up until birth. but i want to ask you one further question on this. do you think that states that ban abortion have a responsibility to financially support women who give birth to a child they didn't plan to have or maybe can't afford? for example, do you support paid family leave or subsidizing child care? >> this is what i mean when i talk about compassion. the state of texas recently passed a very strong pro-life bill. but what they got no credit for at all was that in the same bill they approved $100 million in new funding for women in crisis pregnancies and for newborn care. that's the model for the future. i truly do believe that if we're going stand for life, we have to care as much about newborns and mothers as we do about the unborn. and we ought to be providing

support to women who bring children into the world, and we ought to come along side. >> does that include paid family leave, subsidizing child care? >> well, we've advanced that principle in the administration for federal officials. and look, but i wouldn't stop there. i got to tell you, states around the country that continue to advance the cause of life i think are demonstrate aggregate generosity of the american people. and i want to be a part of principle and compassion is the way to move forward and advance the cause of life here in iowa, back in indiana and all across america. >> sir, let's go back to the audience. this is michael banks. he is a retired photographer who worked at a local tv station here in iowa. he is a republican from des moines. michael? >> hello, mr. vice president. my question, what is your view of the current situation in

ukraine? and what do you see as a resolution to this conflict? >> well, thank you, michael. thanks for the question. look, i know that some in this debate have called the war in ukraine a territorial dispute. it's not. it was a russian invasion, an unprovoked russian invasion. and i believe the united states of america needs to continue to provide the courageous soldiers in ukraine with the resources they need to repel that russian invasion and restore their territorial integrity. look -- [ applause ] michael, we're the leader of the free world. we're the arsenal of democracy. i hold to what we used to call the reagan doctrine. president reagan expressing in a state of the union address back in 1985. he essentially said look, our

policy in the united states will be if you're willing to fight the communists in your country, we'll give you the means to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. and that's the policy that we've approached here. i want to say, president joe biden has been slow in providing military resources to ukraine. i mean, they promised 33 abrams tanks back in january. they're still waiting on them. we're waiting on f-16s to be transferred from somewhere. our administration ended what was a ban during the obama-biden administration on any military resources at all. we provided javelin missiles. all they were providing was military meals and blankets. we corrected that and ukraine was better situated to be able to deal with this russian invasion. but i want to tell you, i think it's in our national interests to make this fight, to give them the ability to fight and win against the russians for two reasons. number one, i've met vladimir putin, okay. i've looked him right in the eye

and told him things he didn't want to hear. anybody that thinks vladimir putin will stop if he overruns ukraine has what we say back in indiana another think coming. he has no intention of stopping. he's made it clear that he wants to recreate that old soviet sphere of influence in eastern europe. >> let me ask you a question about vladimir putin. >> where servicemen and women like my son and n the marine corps and my son-in-law in the navy would actually have to go and fight because he crossed into a nato ally. so that's first is stopping russian aggression and saying we're not going to allow russia to redraw international lines by force. but also, look, our greatest economic and strategic threat in the 21st century is china. and i believe the most effective way to discourage china's increasing military aggression and ambitions in the

asia-pacific -- >> sir, have i some questions about that. >> is to give the ukrainians the ability to defeat russia and drive them out that will send a russia to china that we're not going to tolerate. >> we'll get to china in a minute. but i just have to ask about something that your former boss donald trump said in his cnn town hall. he was asked whether he wanted ukraine to win the war. and he would not say. what message does that send to vladimir putin? >> well, frankly, when vladimir putin rolled into ukraine, the former president called him a genius. i know the difference between a genius and a war criminal, and i know who needs to win in the war in ukraine, and it's the people fighting for their freedom and fighting to restore their national sovereignty in ukraine. and america, it's not our war, but freedom is our fight, and we need to give the people of ukraine the ability to fight and defend their territory.

>> you mentioned china. there have been a series of concerning military encounters between the u.s. and china in recent weeks and collision between warships in the taiwan straight, an intercept by a chinese fighter jet. how would the pence administration respond to such things? >> the chinese communist only understand one thing and that's strength. the truth is the biden administration has been busy cutting military spending. and one of my concerns about the recent debt ceiling deal was that once you factor in inflation, it actually represents a cut in military spending. over the next year. i mean, china is floating a new battleship every month. we've seen the provocations both in the air and on the seas just in the last week alone. they built islands that become military bases in the south china sea.

i mean, look, china has a desire to drive the united states out of the asia-pacific, and now more than ever, we need a president who will marshal the support of the president and the united states congress to build a military fitted to the times to send a deafening message to china and any other power in the world that the united states of america will defend our interests and defend our allies and have the ability to do it. that's the message to send. [ applause ] and i really believe that. but it's a very serious time. but i believe in peace through strength. i've long said that weakness arouses evil, and i think that the policies of the biden administration capitulating to iran, begging them to come back into the iran nuclear deal, giving russia back the nord stream 2 deal. and of course the disastrous

recall from afghanistan have literally emboldened adversaries around the world. we need to return to american strength. and i believe that begins with making the right investments in our national defense and giving our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and coast guard the resources they need to accomplish their mission and come home safe. [ applause ] >> i know you support a federal ban on the chinese owned app tiktok. have you ever used tiktok? >> no. >> have your kids? >> let me get back to you on that. i haven't surveyed them about it. look, a lot of young people like it. but what you have to understand, kids, is look, they're collecting your personal information. and everything tiktok gets, the chinese communist government has access to. and i think tiktok is incompatible with both the privacy and the security of the

united states of america, and it shouldn't just be banned from our government institutions. it should be banned from this country, period, full stop. >> sir, we're going have to take a quick break. we have much more with republican presidential candidate former vice president mike pence when we come back. stay with us. [ applause ] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ live your best day, every day with the power of the gelflex grid. sleep better. live purple.

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[ applause ] welcome back to cnn's republican presidential town hall with former vice president mike pence. you speak a lot about your faith, and i want to ask you about that. you were raised catholic, and you became an evangelical christian when you were in college. i believe you're the only one of your six siblings who is not a member of the catholic church and doesn't pray there. what's that like for you? i just saw you give your wife a look. oh, and your brother. >> yeah, my brother confirmed that. no, look, i cherish my catholic upbringing. i really do. it's one of the reasons why i was so offended when the dodgers

invited an anti-catholic group to be celebrated in dodger stadium. i called them out. look, there is no place in america's pastime for religious bigotry, period, full stop. i had a wonderful catholic upbringing, but candidly, dana, i just lost interest in religion in my high school years. i'd had a littlef social success, and i just thought religion was a crutch that i didn't need. so i walked away from faith. but it wasn't until i got to college that i started to meet some young people that just told me they were christians. they started to talk about having a personal relationship with god. that was new to me. i started to attend a fellowship group on the campus, and it would be in the spring of my freshman year in college at a place called asbury university

in kentucky where i was sitting on a hillside, listening to singing and preaching and it was like i heard the words for the first time, that god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whoever might believe in him might not perish, but have everlasting life. and my heart was broken with gratitude with what had been done for me on the cross. and i stood up and i walked down and i accepted jesus christ as my personal lord and savior. and my life has never been the same. [ applause ] so i still go to mass with my mom. we worship in a lot of different christian churches and experiences. but for me it's -- i hope it's the defining characteristic of our life. i've often said i'm a christian, a conservative and a republican in that order. and try to live up to that every day. >> i want to get to the audience, and i want you to meet chaz webber. he is a retired business

consultant and republican from ames. chaz? >> mr. vice president, thank you for being here. your strong christian faith has always been an indicator about your personal life and your political actions. how will your christian faith guide you if you are elected president in relationship to government immigration programs and policies for the poor and targeted individuals, especially from latin american countries? >> well, it's a wonderful question, and thank you for affirming the importance of faith in our life. you know, i -- there are issues that i've served in, and i spoke about one of them already tonight, about the sanctity that life that are deeply informed by my faith. shortly after i made that decision to put my faith in christ, i remember opening up the old book and reading before i form you'd in the womb, i knew you, and see, i've set before

you life and death, blessings and curses. now choose life so that you and your children may live. and that's when i knew that the cause of life was his cause and it needed to be my cause. but more broadly, i like your question because it speaks about a heart of compassion that we're called to have as believers. and it's one of the reasons why back when i was in the congress in the united states, and dana remembers this, i was the chairman of the house conservative caucus. but i looked at what was happening on our border, and i felt a moral obligation as the grandson of an immigrant to try to come up with a no amnesty reform proposal. rather to create a new system that would allow people to come into the country legally in an orderly way. there was strong border security in it, strong internal enforcement in it, penalties for

employers that hire illegal immigrants. but it also created a guest worker program. i remember it was very popular among members of congress. it was about 2005, and many members of congress were fascinated by it. it was the idea that we would use private sector employment firms to work with the department of homeland security and literally operate a guest worker program where people could come and go under the color of the law. we used to have a guest worker program in the 19 nifts. it was called the becerra program. but the labor union shut it down under president lyndon johnson. not surprisingly, a few short years later, illegal immigration started to happen at our southern border. i truly do believe we can fix a broken immigration system. we can build an immigration system that's built on the principles of merit and the needs of the american people, but we also can create a system where people that want to come and work, whether it be in

agriculture, or in other trades, can come in for a short period of time pay taxes, participate in our economy, and go home. but all of that was animated and motivated by my deep conviction that we can't walk by on the other side of the road. the truth is the crisis at our border today, there is suffering on both sides of the border. the american people are hurting, but the cartels are literally exploiting millions of people for the greatest most appalling program of human trafficking in human history. five million people coming across our boarder in the last two years, all being driven by the cartels and the failed policies of the biden administration. we can fix a broken immigration system, and i'm animated by my faith. i'm animated by being the grandson of an immigrant to say that we owe the american people, the owe this generation and the next an immigration system that work for a growing america. >> sir, i want to ask you about

what happened during a town hall, again, the one i talked about before, that president trump participated in. he said your administration's family separation policy was an effective deterrent and refused to rule out bringing it back as president. would you bring it back? >> no. >> okay. >> he also opened up -- >> no, look. the family separation policy actually began under the obama administration. and then we continued it until president trump rightly reversed course. look, we got to stop putting band-aids on the problem. we got to stop having small little fixes and programs. we've got to secure our border. we've got to finish that wall. we've got put remain in mexico policy back into effect, title 42. we've got the end illegal immigration and asylum abuse like we did in our administration. and then we've got to fix this broken immigration system once and for all. [ applause ] >> sir, i want to go back to the

audience and bring in laura lyons, a nurse from grand junction, who is on her local city council, i should say. a republican who voted for joe biden. laura? >> thank you for having me, and happy birthday. >> thank you. >> as a mom of a teacher, what are your thoughts on the educational vouchers? and how do you feel this will affect public schools specifically small schools? >> well, it's a wonderful question. i know you got to be proud. >> very. >> of that teacher in your family. >> yes. >> in fact, i've been remiss so far. i haven't introduced my favorite teacher. she spent 30 years in the classroom, 15 in a christian school, 15 in a public school. art teacher, second grade teacher, and actually turned out to be the best second lady the united states has ever had. my wife karen pence is with us today. [ applause ] if you want the know karen pence, just think school

teacher. that's what she is. and i'm apparently her prize pupil. 38 years tomorrow together. look, we've got great challenges in education today. i mean, many of our most vulnerable populations are relegated to some of the most failing and dangerous schools in this country. and for a very long time, i have believed that parents ought to be able to choose where their children go to school, public, private, parochial, or home school. we ought to give parents that choice. but let me say very emphatically on behalf of your daughter. she teaches at a public school. my wife taught in public education for half her career. i think educational choice that's expanding around the country, my friend governor doug

ducey actually passed the first legislation in america for universal school choice in arizona. in iowa you followed suit. in indiana, i'm proud to say we followed suit as well. other states are following. and expanding the opportunity to choose where your children go to school to every family in the state. now for my part, i'm someone that believes in competition. i actually think by letting parents choose where their kids go to school, all the schools are going to get better. i have confidence that our public schools can compete with our private schools, and they will be more responsive to the goals and the values of the people of their community when they have to compete for those students. so, you know, we're deal -- in iowa we're dealing and around the country you're dealing with this issue this radical gender ideology that's taken hold in a lot of our public schools. a group that i founded has been involved in battling against the

lynnmar community schools case. it was a case -- viewers will have a hard time believing this, but a student would have to bring in a slip from their parents to get an aspirin from the school nurse, but they could get a gender transition plan without telling their parents. well, we're fighting against that in the courts. but i really do believe that by giving parents the ability to choose where their kids go to school, we're going drive a lot of this politically correct nonsense out of the schools, and our public schools will respond and start respecting the values of every american. >> sir, i want to ask you about another issue related to this, and that is about what's going on in some legislatures. some republican-controlled states have banned transgender children from receiving gender-affirming care, even with the consent of their parents. you talk a lot about parents' rights. you do it on the campaign trail. >> i do. >> you've done it before. you just did it now. so why do you believe it's the

government's role to overrule what parents decide is best for their own children in this case? >> well, i strongly support state legislation, including as we did in indiana that bans all gender transition chemical or surgical procedures for kids under the age of 18. >> so what if their parents support that? >> i hear you. i hear you. but on this one, i got to tell you, dana, and i'm talking as a father, and i'm talking as a grandfather right now, look, there is a reason why you don't let kids get a tattoo before they're 18, right. because those of us that have been parents know that before they're 18, i don't want to say anything. my kids are watching. but, you know. they think you're an idiot for everything. >> i don't think government regulates tattoos. >> look, i'm just telling you. when you're talking about something that is absolutely transformational, and that we know from mental health experts

more often than not has profound negative effects on people in the long-term, i think at minimum, it is proper for state governments and state officials to simply say, whatever -- however adults want to live, they can live, but for children, we're going to protect kids from the radical gender ideology and say no chemical or surgical gender transition before you're 18. >> so, i just want to be clear on this, because -- [ applause ] you are so adamant about parents rights, but in this particular case -- >> right, i am. >> parents that say that what is best for their kids, what their kids feel most comfortable with doing, is gender transition, that the parents should not be allowed to do that for their kids. >> right. look, the state has the

obligation to see to the safety and health and well being of the people of the state. and i accept that. look, it -- i take your point. i take your point. >> it's not a point, it's a question. it's a question. >> we have afoot in america is a radical gender ideology that's taken hold in our schools, our universities, it is afoot across the nation, and i think at minimum we've got to make sure we protect kids from making decisions that permanently alter their bodies and permanently set their lives on a difficult path, so, i hold to this view and that's where i'll stand. >> okay. i just have one more question on this. [ applause ] because, sometimes it's easy, and you know this, as a policy maker, it's easy to talk about policies, but i want to ask you this question on a more human level. what would you say to a transgender kid and their family who say that this is how i feel

more comfortable and i don't feel comfortable another way, and that they feel that you are targeting them? >> i would tell them that i love everybody. i'd put my arm around them. and their parents. but before they had a chemical or surgical procedure, i would say wait. just wait. i mean, some people -- maybe there's exceptions, but most people, before you are 18 years of age, there's a reason we got that cutoff, for all kinds of categories in our society. you just don't really know what you want in life. you don't know who you really are. it takes time. to become an adult and figure that out. and i just -- i put my arm around them and tell them i love them, but just wait. just wait. and that's how we put the interest of our kids first. >> okay, thank you. we're going to have to take another quick break. much more with republican

presidential candidate former vice president mike pence when we come back. stay with us.

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welcome back to cnn's republican presidential town hall, with former vice president mike pence. i want to ask about what we are seeing happening all up and down

the northeast right now, which is tens of millions of americans are breathing toxic air today because of thick smoke coming from wildfires in canada. a report from your administration, the trump/pence administration found that manmade climate change is making wildfires more severe and more frequent. will the climate crisis be a top priority if you are elected president? >> well, let me just say that clearly the climate is changing. not as dramatically as the radical environmentalists like to present. but there's change. over the next century, there will be modest changes in temperatures, but what we have to do in dealing with this, i think, is bring american innovation to it. i mean, the trust of the matter is, during our administration, we actually reduced co2 emissions beyond what the previous administration had committed to, just through american innovation. through expanding american energy and natural gas.

and i really do believe that we've got to make sure that whatever we do with regard toar air and water cannot be done in a way that puts an undue burden on american families or american businesses. we've got to make sure that whatever we do doesn't disadvantage the united states on competing on the world stage. i've been watching with great interest the smog, we have kids that are stationed out west and share the concern, but i will also say that with regard to forest management, we got to do a better job in this country, and we've got to -- we've got to be able to tell -- some of the radical environmentalists that you've got to harvest some trees in the forest to keep the forest healthy. and it will prevent these wildfires from taking place in our country, but i know this is canada, but we've got to bring

more common sense. to forest management in the days ahead. and i'll be apart of that, i promise. >> let's go to the audience. susan olsen from des moines who serves on the aarp executive council. she is a republican who says she voted for joe biden. susan? >> thank you for having me. my question is about social security. mr. vice president, how will you protect social security for me, our future generations, and how will you ensure that we receive the benefits that we've earned? >> well, i turned 64 today. so, my interest in social security is growing. and i won't tell you how interested my wife is. look, these are programs that the american people we lie on a. the hard truth is, social security and medicare are tracking for bankruptcy in the next five or ten years, and under the law, there will be

mandatory cuts in social security and medicare. that's why it's incomprehensible to me that joe biden refuses to even have a conversation with members of either political party about some common sense reforms that would put social security and medicare back on a solid foundation. and end this avalanche of debt that we're bekwooeting to our children and grandchildren. it is also disappointing to me that donald trump's position on entitlement reform is identical to joe biden's. i mean, their policy is inso insolvency. the truth is, not only are we looking at mandatory cuts in these programs if we don't reform them and improve them, but frankly, dana, the $32 trillion national debt that we have today, which is the size of our nation's economy, first time since world war ii that we have debt the size of our economy, that is actually set to grow largely driven by the cost of

entitlements, over the next 25 years, from $32 trillion to $150 trillion. and if we reach that point by the time my three perfect granddaughters are in their early 20s, all of our choices will be bad. we'll either be faced with cuts in these programs, which we would never want to allow, or we'll be faced with having to raise taxes on the american people at a level that would never be imagined. it's one of the reasons why -- i know it's not -- a lot of people say it's not political to do it, but for me, i think we've got a moral obligation to ensure the long-term solvency of social security and medicare, and that means saying to americans, over the age of 40, we're going to keep the system we have, americans under the age of 40, we have to work on the reforms that will lessen the burden of debt and change these new deal programs into a better deal for

younger americans. >> would you raise the retirement age? [ applause ] would you raise the retirement age? >> look, i -- i think the first thing that's got to happen, dana, is that we've got to make sure the american people understand the nature of the debt crisis that's being driven by entitlements. i mean, again, it's incomprehensible to me that the first 80-year-old president in american history refuses to even talk about retirement systems and health care for seniors, that are headed for bankruptcy and could literally bankrupt the country. >> well, as you said, republicans are also saying -- a lot of that off the table. >> i must tell you -- i think it was right to leave it off the table for the debt ceiling deal, okay? but in the long-term, i agree with you, i stipulate to your point. there's far too many republicans, including my former running mate, that are also saying, we leave this off the table. look, i think every time the american people have been given the truth about a challenge our nation is facing, and then given common sense and compassionate

reforms, which would include reforming the system -- it could be a change in the age of eligibility, but it also could include letting younger americans invest a portion of their payroll taxes in a mutual fund like the tsp program that 10 million federal employees are in today. we could literally give them higher return on investment in exchange for changing the benefit structure that they would receive under social security and staving off that massive debt. but it takes leadership. you've got to engage the american people, and i think we -- let me say this. i believe that democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. and i think we got to produce leadership at the national level that has the ability to take on these kind of large problems but is generated in an environment of civility for people across the political spectrum that allows us to get to the table and figure it out. and if i'm your president, i

promise you, that will be our aspiration every day. >> let's go back to the audience. i want you to meet mary anne, she works for an nonprofit helping children with mental health challenges. she's a former member of the iowa state house. a member of her county republican central committee, and she is from council bluffs. mary? >> mr. vice president, thank you for coming back to iowa and thank you for your service to our nation. >> thank you. >> americans have lost faith in our government from the cdc to the fbi. if you are president, what will you do to restore a level of trust in the actions and the decisions of our federal government agencies? >> well, first, i really want to agree with you very strongly. that americans have lost faith in our institutions broadly. and especially in the federal government. i try to remind people today in my announcement here in iowa

that while we have many problems in government, this is still a great nation with great people. we just need government as good as our people again. right? and i think it all begins with recognizing that personnel is policy. it's one of the first things i learned when i arrived in washington, d.c. about 20 years ago. and that is that people you surround yourself with really define your capacity to serve and to advance the policies that you came to advance. and i will tell you, i -- i don't know precisely, mary anne, how i get from here to january 20th, 2025, i'll leave that to the good lord and the american people. but i say this with deep humility, that based on my experience in the congress, the relationships i still enjoy there, based on my service as governor and the relationships i have with governors around the country, based on my four years

as vice president, i promise you, i would know what to do, and more importantly, who to do it with, to put this country back on track, on day one. and it's about assembling a team, it's about bringing majorities with you in the house and the senate, it's about having partners in state houses around the country. and i would say, again, with deep humility, that the presi presidency is no place for on the job training. with the challenges we're facing in our economy, the crime wave in our cities, a crisis at our southern border, an assault on our leiberty, the american peope will recognize in the days ahead that we need experienced leadership that can assemble not just an agenda, but a team. and i promise you, if you give me the privilege to service as president of the united states,

we'll assemble a team you'll be proud of on day one. >> sir, i want to go back to the audience. you mentioned crime, i want to ask cheryl to ask her question. she works at a family-owned hotel and is a republican from des moines. cheryl? >> good evening, mr. vice president. >> hi, cheryl. >> my question is, how would you handle the increased crime rates in our major cities? >> well, first and foremost, i would say, we're not going to defund the police in this country. we're going to support the men and women in law enforcement at every level. and i have to believe that the criminal element in this country has been emboldened by the radical let's defund the police movement. and in a very real sense, as has

helped foment some of the crime we've seen today. but i also believe it's going to be important that we get a lot more serious about serious offenders. look, i -- we passed what was called the first step act at the federal level, president trump signed it into rlaw. when i was governor in the state of indiana, we signed similar legislation. we not only created an opportunity to try and reduce recidivism, people going back to prison over and over again, to give them a new start in life, to make an honest living, but we also raised the penalties. we raised the penalties on s serious offenders. with the crime wave that is taking incomprehensible numbers of lives, we just passed through memorial day weekend. my parents both grew up on the south side of chicago. my heart breaks for chicago. for the violence that's happening in that city alone, but it's happening literally in cities around the country.

i frankly think we need to take a step back from the approach of the first step act. we need to get serious and tough on violent crime and we need to give our cities and our states the resources to restore law and order to our streets, and i promise you, we'll do that, if i'm your president. >> i just want to say, because i've heard other people talk about chicago, just for the record, the atf data shows that more than half of the recovered guns used to commit crimes in 2021, do you know where they came from? indiana. i want to ask about the first step act. not sure if you saw that governor ron desantis says he wants to repeal the first step act. >> i just said, i think we need to take a step back and rethink the first step act. we have a crime wave in our major cities. and i think now more than ever, we ought to be thinking about how we make penalties tougher on

people that are victimizing families in this country. i -- so, on that point, i would agree with others. but i also will tell you in the category of mass shootings, dana, we've talked about this many times over the years, i've had enough. i've also had enough of every time one of these mass shooters claims innocent lives, it happened again just a few short days ago, washington, d.c. immediately squares off, everybody goes to their corners and we start talking about eroding the rights of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms, i will also stand for the second amendment right of the american people to keep and bear arms. [ applause ] but when i -- at a recent forum, i basically said, look, i think we have to get a lot tougher on people doing these mass shootings.

i think justice delayed is justice denied. and i think if you engage in a mass shooting that claims lives, you should face execution not in years, but in months. we ought to have expedited due process that ensures that anyone that engages in a mass shooting in this country knows that they will meet their fate within a year and a half. i think that's closer to justice than anything that we have today. i also think -- i also think we've got to get serious. i think -- as a country, and this is now, i'm talking about a grandfather now, karen and i became grandparents three times over in the last two years. and they're perfect. incredible girls. but i have to tell you, i have very good friends that are actually here tonight that have young children in school in nashville. that shooter was brought down because of the tcourage of law enforcement that ran in without regard to their personal safety and took him down. but apparently he had a list

that had my friend's daughter's cool on it, it was just a couple miles away. i think the time has come for us as a country to end the discussion about school security and if it takes federal legislation, federal funding, we ought to fund an armed and trained security guard at every public and private school in america. and we ought to do it now. >> can i just ask you about that, because what we've seen in uvalde, what we saw in parkland is that armed guards, they don't always work. they're not enough to stop mass shootings. what do you say to that? i mean, we've seen it happen, where there have been armed guards and it didn't stop somebody with a semiautomatic weapon. >> well, it's -- number one, that's why i always say trained and armed. you know, the state of indiana, i was literally, i'd been elected governor, but i wasn't sworn in yet when sandy hook happened. and we huddled with state

legislative leaders and immediately provided funding for what we call resource officers, armed guards that are now in every school in the state of indiana. and by god's grace, we haven't seen an incident like this in our state. but they've got to be trained. i mean, this is the reason why -- if it takes federal funding, dana, let's do it. right? i understand state resources, i balanced four budgets when i was governor of the state of indiana, okay? i understand there are limited resources at the state level, that's why -- i just think we ought to end the conversation in washington, d.c. and just step up and make sure that there's funding available, not just to have an armed guard, but a trained guard who can also be apart of the school community, i mean, the fact is, having somebody that understands who the kids are, they know who they are, they can pick up a sense of where they are, and the last thing, and i've said this, we have got to return our country to institutional mental health

care. people that are a danger to themselves, and a threat to our communities -- too many families, and i remember when the parkland shooting happened, i mean, to hear how many times the shooter's mother went to law enforcement, begging for some help and was told, we have nowhere to take them, we have nothing we can do, i think -- you know, in the 1970s, we walked away from institutional mental health care in this country. we've got to get back to that. families that have young people that are dealing with the advent of serious mental illness have to have a place to go. and we need to make a national investment to do just that. >> what about red flag laws? i know there is one in your home state. do you think there should be a national red flag law? the idea of allowing law enforcement and the courts to temporarily remove guns for people who pose a threat to

themselves and other? >> allowing law enforcement to intervene, particularly resource officers at schools, if they sense that someone is potentially a danger to themselves or others, are useful, but i think we've got to be very cautious about red flag laws going forward. i think we got to make sure and protect the due process rights of americans. we cannot allow laws like that or other laws to erode the constitutional right to keep and bear arms in this country. we never -- we never want to create, particularly at a time when there's so much distrust of institutions, including our department of justice, we never want to perceive to the american people that there's an opportunity for someone to come and take away firearms that you are lawfully possessing. so, due process has to be in the forefront. >> i want to quickly go back to something you said about expediting the processing of people who engage in mass

shootings. a lot of people who are mass shooters, they go in with the intention to die. so, how would the threat of execution be a deterrent? >> well, i -- i follow these stories, just as closely as you do, and, of course, our years in the white house, we saw one tragedy after another. and i know we hear that, and we see evidence oftentimes in the aftermath. that they went in without regard to whether they would survive. but i just believe in the deterrent of the law. and i believe perhaps if we made it clear, i mean, think about this, the parkland shooter is going to spend the rest of his life in jail. in florida. that's not justice. you don't take the lives of nearly 20 young people and get three squares a day for the rest of your life.

okay? i mean, the old book says if you take a man's life, by man shall your life be taken. we've got to get back to justice in this country that is swift and certain, and my hope, and maybe it's just common sense, my hope is that if we sent that deafening message, that you could -- these cowards that go into places that they assume people are not armed, and open fire on innocent civilians, would know that if they are captured in this, in the wake of this shooting, that they're going to face capital punishment and justice and their maker, in months, not years, i believe it would be a deterrent. or so i would pray. >> have to take another quick break. more with republican presidential candidate, former vice president mike pence when we come back. as someone living with type 2 diabetes, i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes

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welcome back to cnn's republican presidential town hall with former vice president mike pence. sir, i want to get right to the

audience and youwant you to mee jesse johnson. he is an accountant and the worship director at his church. jesse? >> howdy, mr. vice president. >> good to see you. >> my question is, how do you plan to reach hard core trump or nothing republicans that supported the president's brash and bullying nature, just as much as his policies? >> well, look, i -- i think joe biden and kamala harris are going to be the great unifiers of the republican party. [ applause ] okay? look. look, i -- i'm running for president of the united states, we're going to have a spirited primary and i hope i come out on top, but i don't worry about the unifyty of the party. everywhere i go, i hear how deeply concerned people are with the failed policies of the biden/harris administration, it's extraordinary how far we've

dropped in just 2 1/2 short years. i mean, that disastrous withdrawal from afghanistan is where it all began. i mean, the chaos that's unfolding in the wider world, and not just the war in eastern europe, not just provocations by china, but literally, to see china now negotiating agreements between iran and saudi arabia, i mean, there is a -- there is a vacuum of leadership on the international scale, the american people know it and they see it. and then here at home, the burden that we've heard about from families here in iowa, just trying to make ends meet. i remember being at a gas station, dana, in hobart, indiana, a mom there, we were doing a thing about high gas prices and there were a couple of you news people around. and she had two little kids in the back seat, i said, how are you holding up with high gas prices? she said, oh, we're doing okay.

she said, we only have to go to the food bank once a week now. and i looked at her, i said, are you out of work? she said, no, no, my husband's got a job, and i'm home, but she said, we only have so much money for groceries. with gasoline prices being where they are, grocery prices being where they are, we -- we just go to the food bank. i mean, you reported many times, about two-thirds of the american people are living paycheck to paycheck. and so, when you talk about divisions in the republican party, look, we're going to have a very spiffrited debate, and n only do we have differences, but a different vision for our party. i'm somebody that leaves in american leadership in the world, our party needs to lead on fiscal responsibility and stand without apology for life. we'll have those debates, but i think once people of iowa play your role and republican primary voters play their role, i'm

confident that whoever our standard bearer is, and i hope it's me, is going to be supported by republicans and independents and many democrats around the country, who know we can do better, and we can bring this country back. >> another thing that you said in your announcement today, you said, quote, anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states. clearly referring to former president trump. an hour later, you pledged to support the eventual republican nominee. so, if you think that donald trump should never be president, how could you commit to supporting him if he is the nominee? >> well, let me say what i said today, was that anyone who puts themselves above the constitution should never be president in the first place. and anyone who asks anyone else to put themselves over the constitution. should never be president again. i had hoped that president trump

would come around on our difference about that tragicdy and about my role, and i still hope he does. i mean, we'll have differences that are worthy of debate, but -- at its very core, it's important to remember, the president of the united states takes an oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states. and faithfully execute the laws. but at the core of that is a willingness to submit to the collective wisdom of generations of americans. and i hold the view that it should be a prerequisite of any man or woman that would ever hold the office of president that you would agree to never put yourself above the constitution. my son's a marine. he flies the joint strike fighter in the marine corps.

and around the time of that fateful day, i'll never forget, my son looked at me, he said, dad, you took the same oath i took, nothing else matters. the men and women of our armed forces take the very same oath to support and defend the constitution. we don't give them the option to decide whether it's in their interest or not. we give them the assignment and they go. without regard to their personal safety. and i think whoever is president of the united states, that man or woman should have no other view. but let me say that with regard to supporting the republican nominee, look, i -- i started in politics as a democrat, but as soon as i heard the voice and ideals of the 40th president of the united states, i joined the reagan revolution and never looked back, and i've always supported the republican nominee for president of the united states, and i'll support the republican nominee in 2024, especially if it's me. [ applause ] >> but i just need to follow up

on this, because you also say, and i've heard you say this for years, i'm a christian, i'm a conservative, and a republican in that order. >> yeah. >> you just spent a lot of time both here and earlier today explaining why you think that the former president did not uphold his oath to the constitution. so, then how can you say that you would support him if he's the nominee? >> well, because i don't think donald trump is going to be the nominee. >> what if is he? >> i don't think -- >> what if he is? >> i have great confidence in republican primary voters. we have a field of strong and experienced candidates that grew by one today. and i truly do believe that people here in iowa are going to recognize the challenges that we're facing and understand that different times call for different leadership. the american people don't look backwards. we look forward. and i truly do believe whatever the polls show and whatever the pundits are saying, that when the time comes, the people of iowa are going to take a fresh

look at all of us who have stepped fwaorward. i don't think my old running mate is going to be the republican no, mminee for presit and i'm very confident that i'll be able to support the republican nominee for president of the united states. and i hope it's me. [ applause ] >> i want to go again to the audience and i want you to meet sue, a mom, she is a republican who owns a dance studio, a board member for the national association of women business owners. >> thank you, mr. vice president, for kormcoming to io. >> thank you. >> my question. although i voted republican in the last presidential election, i was very encouraged when i heard president biden say in his inaugural speech he was going to focus on uniting both parties and america. unfortunately, that has not happened. in my opinion, in fact, the parties and the country are more divided than ever, and i, as a